Architecting Inclusivity - Part Two

In this episode, the brilliant minds -  Jeremy Baxter-Jenkins at SilverFox Communications, Justin Boone of Opus Agency, Kena Jones of Salesforce, Susie Kandzor of Microsoft, Allie Magyar of Hubb, Sarah Bondar of the Charles Group, Megan Henshall of Google and Monte Rehling of Intel - return for a continued thoughtful discussion about how to foster meaningful inclusion in virtual and hybrid events. In the second half of this discussion the group talks about how virtual enables and extends audience inclusion, and how we might consider equity of experience across a variety of hybrid journeys. 

Transcript

Introduction: 0:01

Welcome to Futures Forum- sharing ideas, innovations, and best practices. This episode is about architecting for inclusivity. For this conversation, we gathered industry experts from Intel, Hubb, O pus Agency, Amazon CEMA, The Charles Group, Microsoft, Salesforce, Silver Fox, and Google.

Naomi Clare, Storycraft LAB: 0:25

I thought that the introductions today as we make our way around would be around Good Questions. We're going to run today's session on inclusivity around good questions is how we've titled the format or the approach for the session. So with that, S usie, I'm going to turn to you next. A nd I think one of the things that's super interesting, one of the many things t hat super interesting about the hackathon and how that's kind of uncovered these questions of inclusion is around how the tool has enabled an extended inclusion. And as I'm hearing y ou talk about the different challenges that y ou f aced, that's also been in this kind of idea of global inclusion, y ou k now, so I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit.

Susie Kandzor, Microsoft: 1:31

Yeah. So it's been an interesting adventure. I will tell you some of the things that I think worked really well and some of the things that maybe we need to rethink. We started, you know, we started hackathon planning this year, thinking it was going to be an in person event, which usually means 50 venues around the world, people in, you know, in person and then about a month in, you know, everything changed. Uh, and so we went to this, uh, Holy virtual model and, um, we also had the challenge that then by the time we got to July, there were three countries that were back to work. Um, so we had the all virtual, the part virtual, the, you know, and I think that's something that all of us are going to start facing, right. Is like, what is this hybrid model look like? And you know, what are you, what are you maximizing for? So our sites in Australia and New Zealand were 100% back to work. Um, and so they were experiencing something very different. Um, and so that was a really big challenge when you're doing something worldwide like this. Um, and I think that that's one that we have to think a lot more about is what is this hybrid model look like, especially as we're going to kind of, you know, this new world is I think gonna keep going up and down and changing for all of us. And we had sites that then came into the stage, they were going to be in person. And then all of a sudden the outbreak was in their area and they weren't going to be in person. So we really had to manage that, which was super interesting. Um, the feedback so far has been fascinating, which is, um, there's a lot of people that are saying that they like the hacking experience better, which really shocked me. Um, but the things that they're saying that they like better are kind of interesting. And number one, people felt like that they could concentrate better when they weren't in a big venue with a lot of other people, which I thought was super interesting because people are saying to us, I miss the connectedness, I miss the connected nature of things, but then people were saying, but I loved being able to concentrate and being able to like, you know, dive deep. So that was super interesting. Um, the other thing that people I think is super interesting as people have said to us, um, I've always known I was part of a worldwide company, but I didn't really know what that meant. Um, and so as a result of this in person hack or this virtual hacking, what happened was people somehow felt freer and more able to just reach out to other people from around the world, in our tool and our hacking tool. And we had many more teams with people hacking all over the world with one another. And so I don't know if it was just that, like they thought, okay, well, if I'm going to be sitting in Redmond, I'm only going to hack with people that are here because then we'll be sitting together. Right. And that's how we're going to work on our project. So all of a sudden what happened was people were like, you know what? It doesn't make any difference where we are makes absolutely no difference at all. I'm just going to go in and look for people that have skills and common interests. And so we had people all over the world hacking with one another, which was super, super interesting. Um, and I think people were very surprised and they were very surprised about like, I didn't know that there was a group in Singapore that did that. You know what I mean? Or I didn't know. So that was another really, really interesting thing. The other thing that I thought was interesting is we, and I don't know why we did this. It was really super, super crazy that we did this, but we decided to do a 65 hour live stream, um, all during the hackathon. And it had kickoffs from all over the world. It has local, um, we had local correspondents in 10 cities around the world, and then we had anchors in Hyderabad and we had anchors in Redmond. And, um, the interesting thing about that, I don't think I would run it as long next year, um, because people need their hacking time. But the interesting thing about that was people got to see each other's cultures. They got to see, you know, we had this amazing, like intricate band from China that did this beautiful, like music that was, you know, very, uh, culturally relevant to that location in China. We had all sorts of like you saw every culture come out, which I thought was super cool. And what we found was people were really interested in each other's cultures. People were really interested in what what's going on in China, what's going on in Ireland, what's going on in Hyderabad. You what I mean? And so now we have all that content after the event, which is super great because we're going to be able to use it all year long. Um, but that we didn't kind of know how people were going to react to the hack TV and that, that ended up being kind of a surprise for us.

Naomi Clare, Storycraft LAB: 6:13

Justin- the question you posted in the chat, I would love for you to post that to Susie, because I think it's quite relevant.

Justin Boone, Opus Agency: 6:24

Actually. I just posted another one too, and it's a combination of all of the above, right. As we think about this, cause I think there's a little bit of a challenge, you know, on one side, I'll ask the question on technology, obviously in some respects that can foster inclusivity in so many wonderful ways and we kind of address those, but there are certainly challenges that come with that and barriers that we have to overcome. And the other thing that you sort of touched on really nicely, that inspired my second question was managing perception and our messaging content experiences, because right now the world is going to be at very different stages of the pandemic. And so how are we ensuring that we don't come off as tone deaf on one side, uh, but still be able to do business as usual on the other side, which there's a, there's a reality in that, right. Business has to move forward, but we have to be very sensitive to the world that we're in and where so many of our audiences are coming from at this current moment in time. And so what is that right balance? What are those steps that we should be taking as we consider navigating those situations?

Susie Kandzor, Microsoft: 7:27

Yeah. And I think Justin that the biggest thing that we found was, um, and, you know, I thought this might be the case, but to no extent, is it what I thought, which is that over communication is critical. Um, and we've, we saw that over and over and over. And let me give you a few examples is, um, I run planning calls every week, leading up to the hackathon with the 50 sites that around the world. And everybody would talk as if, well, I don't know if you know that there's a pandemic going on, but we can't go into the office right now. And like you would think to yourself, Oh, but doesn't everybody know that we're all in this together, but the actuality of it is no, they actually is like, I would hear that over and over people would call me and they'd say now, Susie, I, I don't think you are aware, but we're not allowed to go in the office right now. And I was like, Oh no, I'm aware of that. You know what I mean? But like everybody is in their lived experience. Right. And so what we found is we had to be really, um, we had to over communicate, but we also had to do a lot of individual messaging. Um, so more than ever, I had to work with every site I had to say on every call and please every site you can call me individually and talk to me about what your local challenges are because they were different. They were slightly different in every place. Um, I know That's a hard way to do events. Um, but at the same token you had to let them know that you also were aware that everybody was sort of in a different place in the continuum of, you know, where they are in their pandemic world. Um, that was important. The other thing is, is I think what I realized is you don't know how much you pick up just being at the office and like talking to other people and there's a poster up in your office and you see, Oh, the hackathon is coming up for instance, like, you don't know how much you miss that. Um, and that, like we had to over communicate, I mean, like over do it, like every message we had to send five times instead of, you know, maybe we would talk about something three times before in messaging. So that became really, really critical, but also, you know, messaging for each different region, like please come to us with what your, what your needs are locally was really important.

Naomi Clare, Storycraft LAB: 10:02

And that makes me think a little bit About the conversation Kena that you and I had, where we talked about how sharing as planners and strategists that we're on this journey of discovery with one another, that we know that things aren't fixed In any way, uh, you know, that messaging that out, to pick up Justin on your question, is important as we're planning this. So Kena I wonder maybe you could expand a little bit on that for the group, just in terms of how we think about communicating with our audiences a s we're planning.

Kena Jones, Salesforce: 10:38

Yeah. I think the biggest message is that we're all in the pandemic and we're all learning as we go, right? No, one's lived through a pandemic before. So we are asking for a little bit of patience and latitude, if you will, like, you know, we're not going to get it perfect, but give us your feedback, let us know what we can do differently. So, you know, to your point about talking to the local teams and what was important for them regionally, same thing with the attendees, you know, and trying to figure out how to get some flexibility because people have different work schedules now because they're dealing with personal obligations, working from home or different tools that we're not used to using, or having to adapt and shift to using different types of formats to run our events. And all of a sudden, we now all have to understand broadcast terminology and know how to navigate a broadcast versus before we didn't. So it's definitely a shift. And I think that, you know, I'm not accepting or not expecting perfection has really been a bit of a saving grace and, you know, definitely sharing information. And just like here, we're saying, well, what, what did you do? And how did that work? And, you know, picking up tips cause everyone's in it together. And we all that, you know, anything that you can learn and glean from one team or one company or one event is going to help everyone, you know, along the way. So it's definitely important, I think, to just kind of give yourself permission to test and you know, you're going to fail, but then you just pick up from those failures and then you go onto success, communication and Susie that's when I really appreciate it, what would we do differently next time?

Susie Kandzor, Microsoft: 12:24

And I love what you just said is like, I think that we have to give each other, you know, you have to give each other a little grace and just kind of say like, it's okay. I think the other thing that we got, which I don't know if you've gotten it all, but, um, we had many more people telling us when they liked our communication and telling us when it was. So we, we tried a bunch of things. We tried very like graphical treatments of emails. We tried like ones with a lot of text and links and we had the most feedback on, we did this graphical treatment mail that basically said, no matter how much time you have, we there's something in this for you. And so we said, have 30 seconds, you could do this, have five minutes. You could do this. Have, you know, all day you could do this. And I have never, like, we never get feedback on our demand gen communications. And we must have gotten like 50 mails about like, that really landed with me. And thanks so much like that really. And I was like, Oh, well, that's really interesting because like, I can clearly tell you, I've never gotten any feedback on people liking our demand gen. And so that was really, really interesting to see that, you know, people are getting so much thrown at them that if you can also find new ways to like get their creative, you know, get their spirit like creatively involved, like people will tell you that they liked it. Yeah. And I think that now being in a virtual setting and having the chat boxes open during sessions, people feel more like they can engage and they can give you that immediate feedback. So you don't even have to wait for the survey.

Kena Jones, Salesforce: 14:01

They'll tell you right there in the chat box, if they're enjoying or what's happening. So we're definitely getting that feedback in real time and much more frequently than we did, I think with the in person events. Yeah. I don't know about you, but I am very interested. So we do a post hackathon survey and last year I got 87 pages of verbatims of things that we could improve. And then we asked the quetion last year for the first time, what did we do well? And we will ask that again. And we actually got 38 pages of what we did well, but it was really something, it was a good lesson too. It's okay to ask also what you did. Well, you know what I mean? I know we want to get feedback that how we're doing better, but sometimes people also want to give you feedback on what you did well, and you might be surprised, but that might be more pages than what you can improve on, right?

Allie Magyar, Hubb: 14:49

Yup. Yup. Exactly. That's a nice thought. I would comment on what you were talking about earlier in terms of asking the question. And I think sometimes as it pertains to inclusivity, we get really anxious because we don't want to offend and we like the intent is there, but we don't know how to deliver that intent. And I, one of the things that I've found and Susie and I got to work together on events previously as well. And what we found is it really was just about stating the intent. We're trying to create the most inclusive environment possible and look to your feedback to help us to do this. Well, when we formed an accessibility concierge for Microsoft ignite, it was oftentimes people just want to be listened to, they want to be heard. They want to be seen. And I think that's so much more prevalent even in today's world because we're all stuck behind a computer screen or stuck at home. And so I feel like as we look into building some of these inclusive environments that we have to get beyond the fear of asking the questions and really think about how we frame and discovery, because if people understand why you're doing it, then they oftentimes will lean in to help co-create with you. And we'll provide you that grace, versus if you haven't asked the question, people are angry because they think you haven't thought about them. You don't see them, they aren't heard. And so oftentimes I loved the perspective of over communicate. And I think over communicate with intent is a really big piece of that so that people can cocreate with you and feel heard as we look to really change up our environments. Cause it is brand new for all of us here just comes from, you know, you might not have the answer to the question.

Kena Jones, Salesforce: 16:32

And I think maybe that's why people, um, you know, kind of stand back from even putting the question out there. Cause they're like, I don't know how to answer it. So I don't know what to say, but to your point, they just want to make sure that they're being heard. So you can come back and say, okay, well, yes, I don't actually know what that is or I'm not sure how I can help you. Do you have any ideas or have you done this in the past? And like you said, cocreate and work together to come up with a solution and right there, whenever anyone makes an effort to hear you or to make sure your needs are taken care of, you've got a fan for life, you know, they're going to always support you. And then they're going to spread the word amongst the community that you know, what this company really cares or this event went above and beyond to make sure that I had a great experience. And that's at the end of the day, what you want to do, you want to form those connections to make sure that the community knows that you're not just giving lip service. You know, you're not just saying we're about inclusivity and accessibility, but not really delivering. That's how you show that you're delivering value on that.

Susie Kandzor, Microsoft: 17:35

And I think also when you mess up, be okay to just say you messed up, you know, so we had, you know, we, we do our best to do fantastic closed captioning on all of the, you know, 35 videos and guess what, it's not always going to be perfect. And we had somebody who was incredibly upset about it because the closed captioning, um, really hurt their message. And it was all around mental health and they were incredibly hurt by it. And you know what, we didn't, we didn't, we just apologized. We called them immediately. We fixed the captioning immediately and helped them do that. And they were so, uh, you know, just appreciative that we didn't try to, like, we didn't try to explain our way out of it. You know what I mean? Like we just said, Hey, we can do better. And we had it fixed within one hour. Um, but we reached out to that person individually and said, we apologize and we will do better. Um, and so, you know, the fact is, is I think people are afraid that they don't know the answer, but they're also afraid they'll get it wrong and guess what? You will get it wrong sometimes. And as long as you fix it, like you said, like, it's one thing to just say, Oh yeah, sorry. And then you don't do anything. You don't take any action, but if you take it actually fix it, that's what people want to see and not shows your intention and your care, you know?

Naomi Clare, Storycraft LAB: 19:02

And I think it's that, uh, being open, being courageous and having that dialogue right without audiences and stepping outside of button down kind of tightly delivered messaging and being authentic humans that are all working through a situation together with the best of intentions. And I think that brings us kind of full circle back to that. Um, uh, that word intentionality that you first raised keynote at the top of the call. Um, so I'm going to move on to it, just a few questions as we enter the last 15 minutes of the conversation here. Um, Sarah, you had sent in a question earlier today that I thought was really interesting about kind of balancing what do we consider equity experience? So I'm wondering, would you like to put that to the group and we'll see, as we move to a place where we can get people in person again, and we have that in person experience as well as the virtual experience for the hybrid event, because I really do think virtual is the future.

Sarah Bondar, The Charles Group: 20:04

Um, my question was really around inclusivity, both in person and virtual. So we all know that if you have a hybrid event, there's always going to be an experience that is geared towards those. The people that are there in person, you know, could be a dinner, it could be, you know, something else, but it seems very natural almost to make experiences that go hand in hand with an event that are for in person. But how do you craft craft something for the virtual audience that makes them feel included? And I guess it kind of bounces into the question of, do you think it's a good idea to have some in person experiences that are only from in person and then craft others that are only for hybrid and create a different string of experiences for each, but while not making it feel like a disconnect to the event?

Naomi Clare, Storycraft LAB: 20:53

I think, cause we're talking about Hybrid, right- To what extent does one experience have to be directly reflective of the other or do we tailor those experiences?

Speaker 4: 21:03

So there's some kind of equanimity, but different acknowledging the different journeys. So curious who wants, who wants to jump in on answering that? Allie! Allie! Allie!

Allie Magyar, Hubb: 21:16

I think, well, I'm spending a lot of time thinking through this right now because I think for the short term, we're all heads down on virtual cause we have to be, but long term, if we think back to events, events happened because of human connection. And my fear in creating disparate experiences is that you're not creating connection. And so as I think about the future of hybrid, I think there's a lot to be thought about. And I don't know the answer because I've never done it, but I'm starting to think through this and think through what does that look like? Because if I'm sitting in a room that connection to someone online, maybe more important than the person sitting next to inside of the room. And as we think about inclusivity, that is another reason if I am a virtual attendee, I don't want to feel any less important than the people that are in the room. So to me, we really have to think about how we're going to bring those worlds together in a way that is extremely meaningful and can connect those audiences together. And so I noticed that, um, I think it was inspired last week that had that sentiment going with the video fee that sort of showed people's sentiment with how things were happening. I think there's a lot of thought process that we're going to need to put into place of how do we create physical environments in person to bring the virtual in person and then also to make the virtual feel like they're a part of in person. So there's no real answer in that. Sarah, other than I think in the terms of inclusivity, I think it's so important that you don't feel less than because of where you're participating or how your person.

Susie Kandzor, Microsoft: 22:55

And I'd say, I think one of the things that we're going to have to be really careful about is there may be a lot of people that are not comfortable going back to events in, in person. And so we don't want to make them feel like they're making a bad choice, like, so like we will try not to do things that are just for an in-person audience versus a virtual audience, because I think then we're going to get into like this really, really tricky space, right. We're going to, I know that there is nothing that, you know, fully replaces being sitting next to one another, but I think we're going to have to bring the virtual, you know, whereas before we might have a, a reception or something like that, um, we're going to have to find a way to have virtual people still be invited to that reception. Um, because you know, if you are somebody who's immunocompromised and you just cannot go Back until a point in time when we have a safe, you know, you know, we, we can handle the virus. Like you shouldn't be penalized for that. And so I think that was one of the things that was interesting. We had a long talk about, so we did a live segment on hack TV from New Zealand, New Zealand and Australia. And they were all sitting next to one another. They didn't have masks on, they are all back in the office. And it was very interesting because we had a long talk about, is that going to make people feel hopeful or is that going to make people feel jealous? Is it going to make people feel angry? Um, we had a lot of discussions about that and we actually talked to the teams there and said to them, you know, please make sure in your wording, like you don't want to be like, you know, nananana, booboo, like no one else is together. Right? Like you, you, I mean, you gotta be sensitive to that now. And I think that is going to be the interesting balance that we have to kind of, you know, um, strike is how are we going to make people who cannot come to events still feel connected? And I think that's actually one of the great things that's going to come out of this because you always have, you know, I remember when I was pregnant and I couldn't fly and there was a conference that I really, I always attended from year to year. And it was such a bummer to me that I couldn't really take part because it wasn't, there wasn't much of it that was virtual. And now if we, if we do this right, and we craft the virtual and in person together, I think that we will make it magic for more people.

Naomi Clare, Storycraft LAB: 25:16

So Susie, how did, how did it go across? How did people feel when they saw that? Were they helpful? Were they frustrated?

Susie Kandzor, Microsoft: 25:24

You know, what they, they were, um, but I will say the team in New Zealand and Australia did a really good job because they said, you know, we're thinking about all of you who aren't, where we are right now. Um, you know, get excited because it's so nice to be back with our coworkers. And we know that you guys aren't there yet. So, you know, keep up the good work and, you know, keep, you know, wearing masks and everything. So they were very sensitive to it on the flip side. And so it went over really well. Um, and they actually did a lot of, you know, we had like arts and crafts that people could do with their kids because we heard from people loud and clear, you know, it's hard, I'm at home with my kids, but I still want to hack. And so we did a lot of like arts and crafts and things that people's kids could do while they were hacking. And so they did a lot of those things showing that they had done a lot of the virtual stuff too, and then brought those to life so that we could see them in person. So, um, they did a really nice job and kind of married that up.

Kena Jones, Salesforce: 26:25

Awesome. So I have a, um, a question or a comment because when we were still in person events, we would create different experiences for the virtual audience, knowing that they couldn't get the same experience that they could within person. So now with this current world that we're living in, do you guys feel like that's, um, counterintuitive to the whole connectivity and inclusivity, or does it make sense because you really can't recapture that networking event experience, you know, virtually to have something different. Like, what we did was we set up different chat rooms for all the virtual viewers. They have their own like polls, and then we had maybe a special speaker come in and talk to everyone who is online. So as a way to kind of create a different experience for them virtually, it wasn't mirroring what was done in person, but it was near, um, it was doing something virtually for them. So now through this new lens, do you think that that would be perceived as being, you know, kind of separate but equal or, you know, is that just a way of addressing the needs of the different audiences?

Susie Kandzor, Microsoft: 27:33

I mean, I personally think that, you know, you're going to have to do it that way. Right. You're going to have to have some of these. Um, and you know, we took a vision for the hackathon that like, we were not going to recreate the hackathon virtually. We were going to reimagine the hackathon virtually because if we recreated, we were going to disappoint 100%, right. Because it was not going to meet people's expectations. Um, and, um, but the one thing that we did is like, you know, I had kind of been thinking in my mind, you know, okay, well, you can't really have a reception, a coffee, you know, a coffee chat, whatever. But actually what we found was we used all sorts of technology, you know, teams channels set up in different ways where we would have these, you know, we called them open hallway conversations and we basically opened it up for these coffee chats and it was like an open hallway. And we called it that specifically on purpose because we, we had, we invited all the customers that came with, came to the hackathon to come to these open hallways. And we brought in like fun people that they might meet at the reception, um, that would, you know, that would have happened in person. Like, and so we brought some of those people in and we just had like very informal impromptu discussions and we tried to sort of reimagine what that sort of, I mean, the best part I think of going to events is sort of those unexpected meetings. Right. And so we tried to create some of those unexpected meetings with people that then they could just sort of meet one another and kind of have a casual conversation. We didn't try to overly, you know, created and be too heavy handed, but it actually worked really well. Um, so I think we would probably, um, try some of those things. Again, we also tried, we tried like a thousand different things and some of them did not work. Let's just say that. But, um, you know, we did try the things that like, I mean, we had, um, one of our executives, He said, you know what? I just want to get, um, a Teams call open. And, um, I want the projects that are working in the area of sustainability to get on and, um, that they can in the chat window, they put, if they're interested in giving a one minute pitch about their project and I'm just going to give them feedback. And then at the end, they should tell me, is there any blocker of somebody that they, you know, something that's blocking their project? And I honestly thought this was going to be a disaster because I was like, Oh my God, like, what if it's like crazy? Right. Um, it was amazing. It was like 150 people got on. Um, it was with our chief access or chief sustainability officer and literally people just put in the chat, like, you know, hi, I'm Suzy and here's the link to my project. I'd like to go next. And it was so organized. It was crazy. So we're going to do more things like that that are just, you know, very, like you can feel that experience. So I think creating some of those kinds of magical experiences for people that are online, that would be something they would have gotten at a reception per se, um, was, was really like that worked really well. Yeah. And I'm definitely watching all of the sports leagues right now, like live and virtual, you know, because again to you, it's not just one directional where you don't want to just bring the live event to the virtual. You also want to bring the virtual to the live events. So like, I don't know if anyone saw the NBA game, but they've got the fans up on the screens and one of the players looked up and he saw his son watching, you know, and that kind of connection to the in person and the live or in person virtual.

Kena Jones, Salesforce: 31:24

I think it's going to be important kind of bridging that gap and thinking of different ways to bring them all in together. And I think some of the soccer leagues are showing zoom parties where all the fans are in their gear and with the music. And it's just another way to incorporate the community and, you know, have that inclusivity where everyone's there together, which is going to be really interesting as we move towards this hybrid approach.

Susie Kandzor, Microsoft: 31:45

I love that you mentioned that c ause like I'm watching sports very carefully. That's the industry that I came from before I came here and I'm like, I love one of the, one of the teams the other day. You could buy a cutout of yourself. T hey g ot placed in the stands. And I was like, I love that. You know what I mean? I'm like, I love that, that like I might see myself, you know what I mean in the stands, but I think you're totally right. I think crossing this kind of divide is, is going to be and doing it creatively. Right? Like, I mean, we asked customers, we were like, Hey, if you could hear from anybody inside Microsoft, like about any technology, who would you want to hear from? And then we created these, these coffee hours, these coffee chats, and we've just brought somebody in from that team that would be somebody that they would probably go up to at a reception, um, and try to have a conversation with. And we just brought them in and like had this hallway chat and it was, it was really cool. I mean, we have done better, But we started.

Naomi Clare, Storycraft LAB: 32:40

That's, you know, that's a lovely way to think about the inclusivity is, and the questions that we've had today, you know, it actually begins with asking the questions of ourselves, asking the questions about audiences and looking for those opportunities to connect the people that are there, live with the people that are that, but actually they're still there. They're still participating in that experience. And I think that, again comes back to that word of intentionality where, you know, we create those spaces for meaningful connection to occur. Um, so we are we're at the hour. I feel like this conversation could keep going. I want to thank everybody for sharing today and also the brilliant questions that we're asking. One another. I think if there are questions that we didn't get to address today, I want to keep this dialogue going, please send them my way and I can circulate those and we can keep discussing as a group. Uh, as we said today, it's, it's a journey we'll get there together. And it's through continuing to talk to one another about how we can, um, do the best work that we can do, uh, when it comes to inclusion. So Thank you everybody for your time today. Thank you.